Mon 19 Nov 2007

398 Responses to “Todd Bentley MP3 Audio - Please Don’t Be A Huckster”

1. Diane Says:
   November 19th, 2007 at 3:19 pm

   Thanks, Paul, for opening this up to discussion. I have nothing to add to what you said. I look forward to hearing from others because like you I could be wrong.

2. Ben Says:
   November 20th, 2007 at 1:49 am

   Dude, I don’t even know what to say. Sometimes I wonder how people can so out of touch with reality and scripture that they can teach this stuff. It really makes my head hurt.

   I think we should talk about these things, as long as we can manage do confront in love and humility. I think you pulled it off here.

   Nice job.

3. Andrew Kowald Says:
   November 20th, 2007 at 4:21 am

   The thing that worries me is that from what I have heard about Todd he is a man moving with the heartbeat of God. Unless things have changed in recent times I understood that Todd was engaged in an intimate relationship with God and the Holy Spirit has been moving through him powerfully.

   How can someone like this get it so wrong when it comes to erroneous teaching like this????

4. Paul Ferree Says:
   November 20th, 2007 at 5:34 am

   @Ben: It really is frustrating Ben. And as Andrew pointed out, this coming from such a prominent person is crazy. I honestly expect it when I flip through TBN, but I was really blindsided on this one.

   I don’t expect to get any kind of response from Todd or anybody from the ministry, they get flack about a lot of things I’m sure…but, my main concern is the people that buy into it and sometimes we need to really think about what’s going on regardless of the person doing it. It’d be like Bill Graham at one of his crusades making some plea like this to the people. It’s like “Well, it IS Billy Graham, maybe he’s right…” and people follow. And a lot of times people follow just because they don’t want to look bad to other people. I’ll be honest, I’ve given because I felt like I would look bad if I didn’t, and that’s a horrible feeling. It’s like they create this atmosphere where you look like an idiot if you don’t do anything and look at you as if you’re not trusting God or something such as the quote above where Todd says, “We can take credit card, but don’t be empty handed. I think this is a realm in which you need to get involved, somewhere or another, you need to make a demand on heaven…”. What does that do to a person that is weak in the faith??

   Man it’s just aggravating!! And then I was battling with myself for a week because I didn’t want to be one of those stupid heresy hunter types where they put up any kind of misquote or issue that goes against their doctrine. And then I was like, well I’ll put it up and alter the voice so they won’t know who it is because I don’t want to call out Todd Bentley like that…I honestly felt like I shouldn’t put it up because it was Todd Bentley. But, really, if Paul can call out Peter like he did…

   I don’t anticipate doing this anymore. This isn’t at all what this website is about. I would rather just speak truth instead of focusing on the false. But, something about this incident was different. I hear stupid stuff all day long :-).

   Anyway, thanks for stopping by Ben. I can’t wait to spend some time catching up with your blog, it’s been a while. Hopefully things will settle a bit after the new baby comes….hahahaha…did I really just say that? What makes me think it will be calm with a 4 year old and a newborn…I’m an idiot!

   @Andrew: You’re right about what you’ve heard about Todd. Everything I’ve heard up to this point has been pretty good. Especially in getting me motivated to press in and preach the gospel. I love hearing his stories on how he got started in the ministry and stuff. I know that he had some issues last year I think and took a lot of time off. But when he came back it really seemed as if God had done some deep inner healing with him.

   I don’t know, I’m not even suggesting not listening to the guy. I’m sure I say stupid stuff a lot too, and I know people don’t agree with what I say all the time. But, as I said, my main goal is to help the people recognize that we don’t need to be suckered into this garbage and what to look for when some preacher is trying to be a huckster.

   Here’s something that Paul said that may apply here:

   Romans 3:3-4 “3 True, some of them were unfaithful; but just because they broke their promises, does that mean God will break his promises? 4 Of course not! Though everyone else in the world is a liar, God is true. As the Scriptures say, “He will be proved right in what he says, and he will win his case in court.”

   We need to have grace for Todd, we don’t need to fall for it, but we need to be accepting when someone genuinely repents. Maybe it was a mistake, or a misunderstanding, or a moment of weakness…who knows, the important thing is for the believers to be strong whether or not the leader is currently walking in right standing with the word of God or not.

   At the time I’m writing this when you search in Google for “Todd Bentley Audio” this article is listed #1. And when you search for “todd bentley mp3″ this article is listed at #4 or #5. That should make things a little interesting. I don’t want to smear his name at all…but I do want to call this to attention and would hope get some discussion on the issue.

   What did you think about it Andrew? Have you listened to Todd before? Do you think this was the right thing for me to do?

   Thanks guys!
   Paul

5. Diane Says:
   November 20th, 2007 at 4:03 pm

   “But, really, if Paul can call out Peter like he did…”

   Paul also said that if he said anything that wasn’t in line with the gospel he’d brought it should be rejected.

   Anytime we put someone on a pedestal we help set them up for a fall. Jesus tells us we have only one teacher. Each of us always has the responsibility of discernment, of checking what we’re hearing against who Jesus is.

   For what it’s worth, I’ve been impressed with the spirit of all the comments.

6. Nathan Says:
   November 20th, 2007 at 11:41 pm

   Hi there,

   I just stopped in and I just have to say that I really appreciated this article.

   I’ve been in environments like this before where there’s a coercion in the air and you feel that your stake in the kingdom of God is directly tied to what you pay for, and it’s a powerful deception. But I appreciated that you took the step of courage to contact Todd’s ministry about this, and that you were able to affirm the good that has come out of his ministry at the same time.

   Blessings,
   Nathan

7. Paul Ferree Says:
   November 21st, 2007 at 6:59 pm

   Thanks for stopping by Nathan.

   I’ve been in environments like this before where there’s a coercion in the air and you feel that your stake in the kingdom of God is directly tied to what you pay for, and it’s a powerful deception.

   This is what I feel is the biggest issue here. Completely aside from Todd Bentley. As I said he just happens to be the person behind the message here. But we’ve got to be smarter as a body to not be influenced by this stuff, because if it didn’t work, they wouldn’t do it!

   Paul

8. John S Says:
   December 8th, 2007 at 11:53 pm

   I have enjoyed this post- is it possible that we are speculating a bit on Mr. Bentley, not knowing how much he actually gives away? Thats right, what if this man is actually giving 50 percent of what he takes in-

   I guess I am against this idea (which I used to have so much) that we are supposed to be so hyper spiritual, not talk about money, not discuss it, not talk about giving or receiving–

   yet wasnt it Jesus who said in Luke 6:38

   ‘Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.’

   That was Jesus- he kept a money bag in which one of his disciples (Judas) was stealing from it.

   I just think we need to be careful labeling people as hucksters just because they may sound like someone else. Unlike a lot of folks from the prosperity doctrine, Todd Bentley grew up in a trailer in the woods of Canada. His accent bothered me (it sounds more old time pentecostal)- but he never listened to any Word of Faith tapes, Mike Murdoch, Kenneth Hagin, etc. I had to overcome my prejudice, because I immediately assumed that he had studied these men.

   I think we should just be cautious, thats all. Yes, their is hype, manipulation, etc- but lets not discard Jesus’ own words and others like Paul (here is a challenge for you who are so spiritual you never talk about money, never need it, and probably dont give much actually….I am speculating)

   Go and find how much Paul actually spoke with others, thanking them for their financial/substantive support– go count, do your own study and find out. Yes thats right, even Paul, the Apostle who labored with the Love of Christ that compels him, asked for assistance, from time to time. Does that make him a huckster or a manipulator?

9. Paul Ferree Says:
   December 9th, 2007 at 1:17 am

   Thanks for stopping by John. I appreciate your comments.

   I have 2 main problems with the above audio I quoted…(did you get a chance to listen to it yet?)

   1. Todd’s insinuation of “sowing seed” in order to receive from God, be it anointing or financial blessing. Directly in the face of Acts 8:18-23.

   2. Todd’s manipulation of the audience to give.

   I hope you don’t take offense to this, but I would really reconsider your interpretation of Luke 6:28. Especially in light of the blessings and woes mentioned in 20-26 above it. Perhaps you’ve read it wrong.

   To attach Luke 6:28 to an offering call is quite horrific actually.

   It is possible that Todd was going to give 50% of it to the poor. But he never seemed to mention it. The only thing he referenced was sowing to receive anointing/”glory”, and sowing to receive financial gain.

   Todd admits that he never preaches about money like this, but the past 2 messages I’ve heard from him sounds like there is change in the air.

   I’m not too spiritual to talk about money, I talk about money quite often. I just think it’s wrong to manipulate the body into giving, and that’s what was going on here.

   I’ve heard my fair share of prosperity folks, and I can spot it a mile away. Todd never has been in my experience, but this is not the normal preaching of Todd.

   I think this was the attitude of Paul, moreso than the above from Todd:

   1 Thess 2:9 “Don’t you remember, dear brothers and sisters, how hard we worked among you? Night and day we toiled to earn a living so that our expenses would not be a burden to anyone there as we preached God’s Good News among you.”

   I don’t want to point fingers. We are all wrong in our theology somewhere, and we are all changing and correcting ourselves in our walk. It’s just that this kind of stuff is inaccurately portraying the gospel and I just hope people are careful, despite who is behind the pulpit.

   We should just get rid of the pulpit altogether. Now that’s an idea!!!

   Anyway, thanks John, hope to hear more from you.

   Did you listen to the audio from Gary Carpenter listed below? I believe it will make a great amount of sense.

   Paul

10. Andrew Kowald Says:
    December 9th, 2007 at 5:38 am

    I think one of the questions we need to be asking on this issue is not only to look at the issues of giving but also to ask who is receiving. Who are we giving to? From my study of the New Testament I have concluded that most of the giving is always for the poor and those in need.

    I am not convinced that giving money to pay salaries, build facilities etc has much NT biblical backing. It is easy for the person behind the microphone to say “give to God” but what does this really mean and where is the money actually going?

11. Paul Ferree Says:
    December 10th, 2007 at 3:20 am

    That’s a good point Andrew.

    Jesus made it pretty clear how we actually give things to Him. If giving to Him a drink when He is thirsty is giving a drink to the “least of these” then why would we think money would be any different.

    If you want to give to God, give to those in need…to anybody! Instead of everybody getting up and walking to the pulpit to give we should be giving to each other.

    We need more horizontal giving rather than vertical.

    Paul

12. Andrew Kowald Says:
    December 10th, 2007 at 3:56 am

    Here are a few examples:

    “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.” Matthew 6:2

    “The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. Now send men to Joppa to bring back a man named Simon who is called Peter.” Acts 10:5

    “Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality. At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. Then there will be equality, as it is written: “He who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little.” 2 Cor 8:13-15

    “There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.” Acts 4:34-35

    “Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.” Acts 2:45

    “Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” Mark 10:21

    “James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews. All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do” Galatians 2:9-10

    “Then the Lord said to him, “Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? But give what is inside the dish to the poor, and everything will be clean for you. Luke 11:39-41

13. Larry Says:
    December 14th, 2007 at 8:26 am

    Isn’t it funny that sometimes we only hear what we want to hear? Are we listening to each other out there? I’ll have to agree with John S above. I don’t think you heard him.
    Why then add another dissenting comment?
    Maybe it’s worth doing.

    I listen to a variety of preachers.
    Sometimes, one of them says something that I can’t receive. Does that make them wrong? What if I don’t agree with their interpretation of a verse? Is it the Holy Spirit, or is it me? Am I not “there” yet spiritually?

    My conclusion is that I personally must be very slow to judge on “disputable” points, since God seems to have a certain standard for choosing his spokesman, but they don’t always appeal to us, due to their quirks. And sometimes, they probably get carried away when they’re preaching. That seems to go with the territory.

    There is a tendency for us as Christians to adopt the position that prosperity is evil, that if a preacher is well-to-do he must be fleecing the congregation, etc.
    I would say it probably stems from misunderstanding, envy, or legalism. Not, of course, in your case, but sometimes mine.

    For example, years ago I became offended at a visiting evangelist for having a new car with a personalized license plate. In my case, I judged the man for it, and couldn’t buy in to what he had to say. That was wrong. In his passionate preaching later about spiritual warfare, he denigrated having a “prayer list” as being for babies. That was the last straw for me (since I had a prayer list). I shut him out after that. What did I know about his affairs anyway? I was a new Christian, a student, driving a beater, and my concept of Godly prosperity didn’t include preachers with more than I had.

    I’ve changed since then. God can bless whoever He chooses. I rejoice when He does and wish them the best. If a preacher/teacher say something that rubs me raw, I try to watch my words, since he very well might be annointed by God to bring a message. Sometimes, it become clear that my feelings of offense come from some attitude of mine that is not right.

    Regarding the matter at hand, I would suggest that someone interested in studying the area of Biblical finances, which Jesus discussed extensively, pick up a book called:
    “Wealth, Riches and Money” by Earl Pitts and Craig Hill, which examines the subject methodically in both the New and Old Testament.

    Having read the book mentioned above, I was surprised to find Todd’s visions to parallel some principles they derive from studying the Bible (since I read the book first).

    My point?
    I don’t have a problem with Todd in this sermon. Paul, I heard the Todd Bentley podcast before reading your comments here.

    First, I wasn’t offended or sickened, and it sounds to me like you have “judged” him harshly, basically making him out to be a huckster. What if it was “of God” and you’re wrong? Do you want to be in that position?

    Second, I think a key point in all of this is the motives of Todd Bentley. Is he rejoicing because the offering will help him in ministering the gospel, or is he thinking about a new toy or his own comfort or building his empire/ministry? In my opinion, based on other stuff he’s said, he is focused on preaching the gospel and bringing more people into the kingdom, so I let him get excited when a big offering comes in. I expect that the money people are giving him will be used for kingdom building and he will manage the finances of the ministry he is conducting with reverence. He will also draw a salary. Hopefully, we’re all ok with that concept.

    Are there “angels of finance”? Is there a heavenly realm with treasures? Are there annointings all kinds, and is there such a thing a supernatural abundance that doesn’t come from human hands? Todd thinks there are. So did he make all that stuff up, or was there an authentic vision? Are you honestly in a position to judge?

    Yes, the Bible talks about giving to the poor, but it also mentions supporting the church, and also has examples of supporting prophets and evangelists, so the argument that our giving should be focussed on the poor is unbalanced. We also need to be sending missionaries.

    We tend to subdivide into groups, don’t we? We’ve got the Word of Faith guys over here, the charismatic Catholics there, the Mennonites and Baptists, the Amish, Messianic Jews, and on and on. All believing the same Gospel and the same Bible. Then there are the cults, which differ in significant ways from the key agreed upon doctrinal points. It seems to me that we as Christians re-classify any Christian “group” that doesn’t hold to our beliefs and relegate it to the cult group. That is wrong, and I hate to say it, but you’re doing it here, with Todd Bentley and also the Word of Faith guys.

    Well, I’ve said my thing, and hopefully you guys will sort it out and come to a correct conclusion. While the discussion has been far from nasty (and I commend you for it), it has been judgmental. The world can still read your comments, so please make sure you pray before posting anything.

    Regards
    Larry

14. Paul Ferree Says:
    December 15th, 2007 at 2:36 am

    Larry,

    Thanks for stopping by and taking some time out to comment.

    I’ve rarely (if ever) talked about or brought up other people’s messages (well, now I can remember I did bring up The Way of The Master here), but other than that, it’s not my normal use of this website.

    I mentioned it in the article and other places that this is more for the audience than it is trying to pinpoint on Todd Bentley. I really don’t want to be one of “those” people that just rag on other people’s doctrine while believing I’ve got it all figured out. I gave that up years ago.

    And you’re right, these things do cause division and disputes, and that was a big deal when I was thinking about whether I should have done this post of not.

    Personally, I think there is nothing wrong with “judging” what other people say, I think we’re called to do that. We just have to realize that in the same measure we judge, we are judged ourselves.

    What I heard in this audio from Todd, in my mind completely went against the idea that you can’t obtain the “glory” with a mere swipe of the credit card. That’s exactly what was being put across in the message from what I heard (which I document above). He didn’t focus or really mention on the benefit of the poor or lost, his primary focus was on “sowing into a realm of glory” to “get it”, and also the financial gain of giving.

    Sure, I believe he was completely tacky and out of line when it came to the whole pockets stuff, but I think the major issue was how I felt he was manipulating the audience.

    There are a few articles I’m planning on writing soon in regards to some of these issues. One of them will be a look into the early writing called the Didache which was basically a general handbook for gentile christians. In it, it says that if an itinerant asks for money then he is a false prophet. But, it also says that you should take care of them. So I think there is some clarity and wisdom in this writing, I’ll explore it more later.

    Also, the notion that Jesus really talked about “finances” in the way that I would say most people think (more like a financial advisor) is not quite right.

    In my understanding and study the only real financial advice he gave was in getting out from under the bondage of it rather than the acquisition of it. I think I’ll be able to show that when Jesus spoke of money, it was symbolism to our heart issues. Mainly forgiveness and love. Basically, if we know enough to treat money a certain way then how is it we don’t understand the more important eternal things such as love and forgiveness…but we’ll look at that later. The love of money is the root of all evil, so using money to reveal heart issues is quite fitting I think.

    Here are some other articles you may be interested in:
    “God Doesn’t Need Your Money”
    http://www.howtobecomeamissionary.com/god-doesnt-need-your-money/

    “Want To Be Rich” http://www.howtobecomeamissionary.com/want-to-be-rich/

    Thanks again Larry, hope we can continue the good dialogue.
    Paul

15. chris Says:
    December 29th, 2007 at 8:05 am

    Hellow i’ve read almost this whole page up till now, I’ve been in many of Todd Bentley’s meetings and all i remember mostly is the wonderful presence of our Jesus , i remember the spirit of revelation when he opened up the scriptures and my heart panted for more of God , i remember souls coming into the reality of Jesus and his salvation from sickness and sin , i remember the hunger in my spirit would drive me into the scriptures to have my own experiences with God , i remember how a spirit of covetousness broke off me when i gave not because Todd asked but i chose to do it during the offering time i gave $333 thats the most i ever gave in money terms TO GOD and not to a man , i did it from my heart, and thats the only offering i think God actually likes, ,you know from our heart.. ummm the reason i’m sharing my opinion is if Todd has fallen into a major or minor deception with all the time and effort that has gone into this page i’m sure he wouldn’t mind if we brought him before the Lord right now ,

    Father god in Jesus name if we have said anything wrong or if todd bentley has said anything wrong please forgive us and bring us into your fullness and your love may you be glorified in every thing that we say from now on may you be seen in our actions and words may you always watch over us and correct us as our heavenly father , we love you and i know you love us thank you for this page and concern in your body for the truth may we know the truth and may the truth set us free in jesus name thank you God

16. Ben Says:
    December 29th, 2007 at 6:09 pm

    Chris, you rock.

17. Nigel Says:
    January 1st, 2008 at 1:33 am

    Now , i might not be as spriritual as you lot, but id like to get my whip out and ….. oooh that makes me angry

18. chris Says:
    January 2nd, 2008 at 12:57 am

    Nigel if you wept over our sins , or loved us so much as to take our place of condemnation for our failures , your whipping would be too good for us (the lot) . I wish I was at that point so we could tag team “N” whip the whole house of sinners , but then i’d probably end up whipping my own self.

19. chris Says:
    January 3rd, 2008 at 5:45 am

    do you remember when God judged the serpent in genesis 3:14 God said to the serpent and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life ,, what do you think God was saying ,seeing snakes dont really eat dust?

20. Nigel Says:
    January 3rd, 2008 at 10:00 am

    Learn me Chris! What does it mean?

21. chris Says:
    January 4th, 2008 at 6:31 am

    well the answer is genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed “MAN” of the “DUST” of the ground… Adams flesh came from the dust ,and if we don’t crucify it, the enemy will feed on our carnal nature and be strengthened by us to steal kill and destroy our very own brothers or even us , the only way to stop this is Romans 8[13] For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.I wonder if the body could also mean the body of Christ, and as we intercede for fallen members we experience life from Jesus as we pray , we experience his love for those people ,and to know his love and the fellowship of His sufferings , and become more like him , as he ever lives to make intercession, it wouldn’t hurt us to do the same , actually it might even hurt the enemy if we do the same , we may even end up pouring out our lives as an offering to God that will bring many to repentance , I guess it all depends on who we strengthen through our words…….

22. Nigel Says:
    January 4th, 2008 at 5:33 pm

    Caught it! Thx

23. Paul Ferree Says:
    January 4th, 2008 at 5:42 pm

    Right Chris,

    And as an aside…we’re called to eat the flesh of someone as well.

    Jesus, who’s flesh is the word of God.

    Man, this could really look odd to an outsider. haha..

    Anyway,

    Good points Chris!

    Paul

24. chris Says:
    January 5th, 2008 at 9:21 am

    I’d just like to say this last point and then we’ll see where this discussion will go from there, ,I agree with Paul
    Ferree when it was said “because if it didn’t work, they wouldn’t do it”! yes this prosperity gospel does work , whether done through corruption or through honest Godly motives , I personally gave a $7
    second hand jean jacket to a street person because he asked me for it , I didn’t even know about this kind of teaching ,and within a month or so my neighbor called me over and gave me a free BLACK Addidas jacket ,my brother gave me a leather sleeved high school jacket and i received another green winter jacket , i had so many jackets i had to give some away , PS: no it wasn’t my birthday Christmas or anything like that , i just gave to the poor out of my poverty, , yes i was on welfare , and the jacket i gave away was a little hard to do , but i just thought what would Jesus do, and did it,
    he who lends to the poor lends to the Lord,
    OK , well, what about someone who just wants my money to spend it upon his or her covetus lusts and not for the Lord, but says its for the Lord, listen to what paul says about stewardship (context is ministers of Christ and mysteries of the kingdom)

    1Cor.4
    [1] Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
    [2] Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
    [3] But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
    [4] For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
    [5] Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. ,

    My point is this, whether we give to the poor or lay our offerings at the Apostles feet, ,only God knows the deep motives within our hearts why we give , and the receivers motives why he or she took the offering in the first place, its our responsibility to see that we are giving to God when ever we give with a pure heart,
    when you give to the least of these you give to me scripture says , Ananias lied to the apostles in acts 5 about money offering amounts and dropped dead because peter said he lied to God and not to men about the amount , ,,God is the judge of our heart motives, and he brought to light the hidden things of darkness , and it cost Ananias and his wife their life , I cannot stress enough
    how important it is for “US” to pray for this and give it to God , yes there are flakes and there is the real , whether you believe in the give me your money and receive more doctrine of covetousness or give to God because its all his any way , its good to remember that we are all stewards with what God has given us, whether
    it be Money or Prayers lets give it back to him with thankful hearts and not fret about being ripped off , look at the lady that gave 2 mites she gave all she had and Jesus said she gave more than them all,,,, ever think about the place where she gave , and who received the offering that day?

25. Nigel Says:
    January 5th, 2008 at 11:52 am

    Chris couple of years ago I was in debt up to my neck. I sold my car in desperation and got only half what it was really worth. The money from that I put it in the offering bowl only after God strongly impressed on my heart. My mind was telling me I had lost the plot.Every car Ive had since then has been given to me and at times have had to turn away offers to buy me cars.

    HAHAHHAA….result or what…

    Amazing!!

26. chris Says:
    January 5th, 2008 at 7:58 pm

    WOW thats better than my $7 second hand jacket story ! Laugh Out Loud man….

27. John S Says:
    January 7th, 2008 at 7:53 pm

    Alot of cool things have happened to me lately- I opened my door the other day and a large envelope full of money was outside- there was no name on it just ‘bless you’

    One my site, I made an appeal to my friends, family and church to give this time. i have never done an ‘appeal’ but after knowing so many people in Kenya displaced by the hatred and violence, and after much tears, I realized I would do anything to buy them food, medicine, a bed. Again , I am like the guy that doesnt give ‘handouts’ and respond to manipulation. But this time something truly prophetic occured– I sent money only a few weeks prior to the cash crisis (thats right, heres the link)

    http://eastandard.net/news/?id=1143979891&cid=14

    And after that I got so inspired, that I decided to ‘provoke’ others to give. Now, let me clarify (I so much am against manipulation and hype)– but did I overdo it? Did I cross the line? At one point it looks like I am boasting, but that is not my intention. In fact, this is the first time I have ever posted on the net, ever the amount that we (shiloh house mission) gave to Kenya. I am not really keeping track, but that current post represents very little compared to our total years in Africa.

    Finally, I will stop here– if you looked at me, and didnt know me, you would think

    ‘wow what a proud guy, posting the fact that he sent money to the needed in Kenya- what a real hypocrite and showy person.’ Unless you knew that this was the first time in 16 years since I became a Christian.. and I want to provoke my other Christian friends who read it to give. I guess when it comes down to people you love-like your kids or children, friends - there is nothing you wont do to try to save them, help them. Actually, sometimes asking for money is very humbling and takes a swipe at your pride. Seriously, before I did this i was a full time contractor (finish carpenter). I had no problem making money… or giving it away.

    Of the thousands of verses about money, i think it is something we need to strive to be good stewards about- give secretly (in general) be prayerful, and have faith in God.

    I understand that when Israel tithed and did offerings at least 3 times a year, they used to boast before others something like

    ‘look at my tithe=- therefore look at how large it was, look at how much he blessed my harvest this year’

    Can any of you confirm that? I havent studied that one.

    Hey prayer request- Me and one other are going to Kenya and Tanzania to help with the crisis. Keep us in prayer, please. Bless you, have enjoyed this post

    john

28. Thomas Says:
    January 8th, 2008 at 1:44 pm

    I used to follow the teachings of Todd Bentley
    and other false teachers none of their practices could heal or set me free from anything, one day I was directed to go on the internet to research the teachings that I had followed, WOW! The truth of God’s Word sure does set you free! As God revealed the lies that I had fallen for and the truth found in His Word I got healed of epilepsi! God used a 3 year old to tell me that I was healed, How disapointing that I could not buy this toddler’s book, CD, DVD set etc. Freely you have recieved Freely give, I have worked day and night that I might not be a burden to you, and that I might preach the Gospel free of charge, thank you Lord!
    You can not buy your way into heaven, if you
    could rich men would have a distinct advantage, but in fact the Bible teaches the opposite.

29. ALEX Says:
    January 15th, 2008 at 3:27 pm

    I can’t believe you guys are wasting your precious short time on this planet to slander other ministries, regardless of whether or not they are right or wrong in what they preach. Allow God to be the judge of them. INSTEAD why don’t you try using your time to get out into the highways and byways and PREACH the Word and spread the love of Christ. Don’t allow the enemy to use you to add more confusion in the Body of Christ, that just puts non-believers’ off Christianity altogether. Todd ain’t perfect, but he sure ain’t a charlatan, if you only knew what God brought him out of! God took an ordinary man just like David and is using him to spread the Gospel. He ain’t perfect, as none of us are, so pray for them!

30. chris Says:
    January 16th, 2008 at 4:10 am

    Alex your a God send , you said everything i wanted to say but didn’t say it, i wish that God would allow all who have written on this blog to go and win 1 million souls to JESUS just like Todd Bentley , and not worry about petty little sidetrack opinions of men ,but that we would feel Gods heart and respond with courage to love the lost and support our brothers and sisters who are actually doing something for Gods kingdom and our criticisms will turn into intercessions, God please grant it so………..PS:a Question to all::::??? if you dont pray from your “HEART” for those “YOU” put down through “your” words what does that make you before God?

31. Paul Ferree Says:
    January 16th, 2008 at 7:16 am

    @Alex: I don’t mean to offend you or make it seem like I’m trying to confuse the body. If anything I hope to bring clarity. If you read the article you’d note that I mentioned I didn’t really know if I should’ve posted this or not because I didn’t want to be a heresy hunter type, that’s not my style at all. But really, this is more about the body itself rather than Todd or any other minister. We as a body need to get a grip on this whole money issue because it’s been twisted up so much. And to see (in my opinion) such blatant financial manipulation in this “movement” was very disheartening.

    As I mentioned before, I wanted this to be an open discussion, not about Todd or even the message, but about what we’re to do with stuff like this. Do we just let it slide while the vast majority of the body is falling for schemes of “sowing” for Godly gain? Or do we address it, not to call anybody out, but to educate ourselves and serve the Lord more wisely.

    Also, Alex, if you would look around the site, I think you’ll find the vast majority of the content here is about the proclamation of the gospel and to help encourage and motivate believers to get off their couches and pews and “do” something.

    @Chris: You’re right and thanks for the heart check. We all need to make sure our motives are right. I hope I haven’t stepped out of bounds, but I’m really just trying to help the body not fall for stuff like this. I think there’s precedent for that, don’t you think? It’s just a matter as to how we handle it. The majority of the gospels and epistles were criticism…as you say, it’s a matter of the heart.

    Anyway, it’s late, I just wanted to pop in and reply. I would hope we could discuss this, if nobody else is watching, at least I could grow from it.

    Paul

32. Diane Says:
    January 16th, 2008 at 2:24 pm

    Paul,

    I my opinion, your piece and the comments have been a good discussion of “schemes of “sowing” for Godly gain” that has been done decently and in order. I found it odd that Alex would waste his time telling those in the discussion, “I can’t believe you guys are wasting your precious short time on this planet.”

33. Thomas Says:
    January 19th, 2008 at 10:22 am

    Amen sister,
    I believe there is a lot of confusion in differentiating between the sin and the sinner. Todd Bentley has not offended me personally and I do not hate him, or hold any kind of bitterness in my heart. If he had a heart attack in front of me I would have nothing against giving him CPR. He is not a personal enemy he is what I call and enemy for the sake of truth. The Bible says we are to do unto others as we would have them do unto us, well when I was corrected for the false teachings that I had been following, (which included Todd’s) It resulted in me being healed of epilepsi a disease that I had had for four years and essentially having the scales taken off my eyes allowing me to see the Gospel as it is not some politically correct, Marketable version, My desire is that others could be set free through God’s truth and that includes Todd Bentley.

34. Jack Says:
    January 19th, 2008 at 5:38 pm

    There is good and bad found in everything. For everything the Lord has good, Satan has a counterpart. The bible clearly states that every man has sinned, and Psalm 116:11 says that all men are liars. However, God chose by the foolishness of preaching to save the lost. When you are saved it is up to you to get in a good bible based church and learn the word. If you do so you would know that the tithe is from the first fruits of thy labor, and an offering is above and beyond that. You would also know that the tithes and offering are to be given upon the first day of the week at the place God has appointed as His house. You would also know that to bring honor and glory to God, you would give thru the church so that God get’s the glory instead of yourself. Then we would not have to discuss this very thing. The bible warns against false prophets, and tells you that you will know them by the fruits that they bear. Likewise it tells you that you should not judge and correct His man. God will judge and correct His people when they get out of line. If you are one of Gods chosen to preach then you will feel the handoff God guiding your life in everything you do. Just the same if one of Gods teachers are out of line and not going with Gods plan, you can rest assured that he will not be in that position long without chastisement. God is Great, God is Good, but God chastise them that he loves.

35. John Payzant Says:
    January 29th, 2008 at 2:57 am

    In 2004 was first time I’d heard of and attended a Todd Bentley Conference at the Abbotsford Pentecostal Assembly felt really good.One speaker said,”Jesus is knocking on the door of the city of Vancouver”,kind of seemed good and kind of seemed not good.All of the laying on of hands and slaying in the spirit kind of seemed good and kind of seemed not good.Security approaches sais,”what is your -function- in the church? I don’t want you praying for anybody in the church, we don’t believe in Theology are systems that are of the devil!”,that was a red flag is not good.After someone telling me I looked like the drummer, decided to go into the front public area to see the drummer and talk to friends when he came so I told him,”I’m with the Prayer Book Society in the Anglican Church”, I felt I was in a different world and felt I didn;t hit it off with the person.Then someone in the crowd screams at me says,”we’ve been watching you we think you’re into occult practice because of the -way you move-”,having a cracked skull and bruised brain in 2000 was a 13 out of 15 brain injury resulted in my right side not working as well as before.

36. John Payzant Says:
    January 29th, 2008 at 3:26 am

    Notify me of followup comments via e-mail I went back to the Gf Strong Rehab Hospital they said,”people like that are in the dark ages!”,I talked with an editor from Bc Christian News said,”that sounds like a red flag”,Talked with my Priest said,”that person had no right to talk to you saying’you’re into occult practice because of the way you move’ I’ve attended a Fresh Fire Conference before”,

37. Thomas Says:
    February 2nd, 2008 at 9:24 am

    Please pray for me and my church, my dad is
    the “pastor” even though he didn’t go to bible
    school or anything and I have been sharing with him what I have been learning about all these different false doctrines and I had to wait over a year but now other people are sharing their own testimonies about Todd, and how God has opened their eyes to the deception but there is an elder in the church who is pretty heavy into Todd’s teaching and has just come back from one of his conferences. Our little church has come a long way in the last little while with my dad publicly correcting someone who had taught something from the front in error (advocating prayer animals as aids to prayer) but that is just a warm-up, essentially, as Todd’s influence on our church has been present for several years. Please pray that my dad would be given the opportunity and the words to speak by the Holy Spirit and that all who are concerned would have humble receptive hearts and that they would be delivered from this and all deception.

    Thank You!

    P. S. John, remember man judges by the outward appearance but God judges the heart, thank God I have been delivered from the occult, but funny that when I was at a fresh fire conference nobody “discerned” that about my past.

38. Alan Says:
    February 4th, 2008 at 7:35 pm

    I love how everyone keeps saying “Not sure if this is right…” to attack Todd, or “not sure I should say anything, but…”. Whatever happened to not being an accuser of the bretheren? What did Jesus say regarding ministries? He said “Judge it by its fruit” Matthew 7:16. Or better yet Matthew 7:18 “a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit” Are people getting healed at Todd’s conferences? YES, I have seen it. Do YOU have a healing ministry where the lame walk, the deaf hear, and the blind receive sight?
    This is a hard word for some perhaps, but just because you dont like his ministry style, or dont understand his teachings, doesnt mean you can attack him as apostate! The Lord is perfectly CAPABLE (amen!) to discipline his son Todd, just as he is very able to discipline me!

    Judge not Paul, lest you be judged by the same ruler. That means, leave the judgement for Jesus, who is able - and you go on focusing on Jesus, and preaching the Gospel, and allowing the Holy Spirit to work within, and bearing fruit. What fruit does it bear to attack another ministry? Even if you say “I’m not sure I should be doing this…” That should be the tip off, your heart doesnt condone it.

39. Paul Ferree Says:
    February 5th, 2008 at 3:19 am

    Alan,

    I think you may have some of these scriptures misunderstood.

    But, in reality Alan…how is what you wrote about me any different than how I wrote about Todd?

    Aren’t you doing the same thing in judging me?

    Here’s the deal, Jesus criticized the Pharisees and others. A lot of Paul’s letters are critical. There’s nothing wrong with questioning other brothers and sisters…as long as it’s done with a sincere heart.

    We are told to be careful how we judge because the same measure that we use when judging will be used against us. This is why we’re called to have mercy, so that on THAT day we too will have mercy.

    Paul

40. Thomas Says:
    February 5th, 2008 at 6:37 am

    I would like to clarify something, I do not judge Todd’s motives, his sincerity, nor can I say if he will or will not be saved on that final day, what I do judge is his doctrine,to see if it lines up with the Word of God or not this is coming from someone who followed his teachings for years along with “word-faith”, or “positive-confession” teachings and until someone judged me and told me that the teachings I had been following where wrong and showed me from scripture why I was in bondage as a result of these teachings otherwise I would not have known. I did not consider the individual who judged me in mercy and love to be an “accuser of the brethren” especially since learning the truth about the error of the teachings I had been following resulted in me being healed of epilepsy a day later when in my kitchen a three year old boy who knew nothing of my situation looks at me, points across the kitchen at my medication and says, “God doesn’t want you to do the bad thing anymore”, and so I threw out the pills and I have been set free! That kid did not collect an offering, or try to sell me one of his books or dvd sets and the fact is God got all the glory. As to not liking Todd’s ministry style, I actually like Todd, his style is part of what drew me to his ministry in the first place, he is even almost the same age as me, and as to wether or not I understand his teachings I have been raised in a Christian home and I accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour when I was seven, I strayed from the Lord and started experimenting in the new age this also is part of what attracted me to Todd and the “word-faith” teachers as the “gifts”, or “powers” and “super-natural” experiences seemed to be a “safe” alternative to what I had renounced and repented of. Boy was I wrong, but my point is I understand Todd’s teachings and I like the guy and that is why I want him to be set free just as I have been, and Alan thank you for your comment as it made me think and if I really want Todd to be set free I have come to the conclusion that I should write him a letter sharing my testimony and I ask that all who read this agree with me in prayer in the name of Jesus that Todd would be set free and be granted mercy unto repentance. Amen

41. Thomas Says:
    February 5th, 2008 at 7:18 am

    P.S. as to judging a ministry by their “fruit” what about the fruit of the Spirit? As when I was following Todd and others teachings I was lacking in this fruit, not so since I have been set free, and don’t forget many will say on that final day, “Lord, Lord, did we not cast out demons, heal people, etc. in Your name?” and He will say unto them, “depart from Me I never knew you.” Not to mention the scriptures that talk about the anti-christ decieving the very elect if it were possible with lying signs and wonders. Did you know that Todd has claimed that he heals by the power of an “angel” named “emma” the same angel that supposedly gave William Branham the power to “heal” people the man who said that the Trinity is a satanic doctrine, and taught the “serpent-seed” doctrine which is highly racist. So just because people are or seem to be getting healed or supernatural stuff is taking place does not mean it is of God, we need to be vigilant, to be as the bereans searching the scriptures to see if what any teacher says is true or not, and if you have access to the internet it is an extremely powerful tool for researching individuals and ministries, until someone judged me and said I should research the ministries and doctrine that I had been following I had no idea, and it was so encouraging to find out that I was not the only one who had been deceived and set free, and God even brought people to my church that had been set free, but I had to wait almost two years while just about everyone in the church was going along with these teachings or they had no opinion on the matter, now finally it is coming to a head people have left the church over Todd’s and other false teachings and more have said they will leave if something is not done. I think this is great because it is shaking all of us out of complacency and after this issue is dealt with, by the grace of God we will get to some serious soul-winning and leave behind the Laodacean social club format of “church”, I am also excited about the recovery house that God has given to my parents and I would appreciate everyone’s prayers as I have committed to being the live-in house leader. This is especially exciting for me as life at the recovery house will be like church everyday or perhaps more accurately like Bible camp every day. I know that God works all things together for good for them that love Him and are called according to His purpose so everything that has been happening at the church is a learning experience but I am so pumped about this next stage as God has set me free from so much: Addiction, the occult, false teachings, and epilepsy to name a few, and forgiven me of so much and now I have an opportunity to “comfort others with the same comfort that I have been comforted with” and let me tell you my life used to be a living hell, but praise God! He has set me free and now His Joy is my strength and through Him I shall do valiantly, for it is He who shall tread down my enemies! The Name of the Lord is worthy to be praised, so shall I be saved from my enemies,the Lord dwells in the praises of His people, and the enemy perishes at His presence! Thank you Jesus! and Thank you everyone for your prayers you are in mine as well, your brother in Christ, Thomas

42. Tyler Says:
    February 5th, 2008 at 11:01 pm

    1 John 4:1
    Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

    Todd Bentley plainly prostitutes the Word of God. Saying this does not make me judging him. If I observe an insect, that is large, orange and black and buzzes I can discern it to be a bumblebee can I not?
    Plainly Todd puts more effort into getting money, than in leading others to Christ. We judge a tree correctly by it’s fruit.

    Matthew 6:33
    But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

    Matthew 24:24
    For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

    Matthew 7:15
    “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

    Luke 6:26
    Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets.

    2 Peter 2:1
    But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

    Thomas, peace to you brother.

43. Tyler Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 5:55 am

    Alan

    Your just plain wrong here. We are told to expose false doctrines, so that they do not continue to deceive.

    Yes Jesus will judge… we cannot say what is in store for the likes of Todd Bentley, but we are to test his words and actions with the measure of the Bible and so should we be tested.

    Ephesians 5:11
    Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

    Peace to the faithful brethren of Jesus Christ the King of kings.

44. Alan Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 2:42 pm

    Thomas, I am thankful that God has set you free from so much, and to God goes the Glory, Amen! You have been set free, and not through Todd - Great! But because you didn’t see the same fruit that Todd has, in your life, or when you went to one of his conferences, or when you were listening to his tapes, etc is no reason to say he is in error. Jesus said that a Kingdom divided against itself will fall. So, if Todd is producing fruit, in accordance with scripture, i.e. it points to Jesus, he preaches the cross, and Christ crucified for our salvation and deliverance - then where is the apostasy? I know you didn’t use that “word” - but isn’t that what your intimating (and others)? Rejecting him, because you don’t like some of the teachings? Now, I am not going to defend everything Todd does, and some things take some time to understand. If Todd is in error - then Christ is faithful to raise him up - we ALL have to believe that, or we wouldn’t be Christians - because its not by our power, Amen? I have been to some conferences where there were people in my group who really didn’t like what Todd said - the way he said it, etc. This is OK! Then don’t come to his conferences! But I don’t see where it aides the Body of Christ to say that he is of the devil, and reject him, and speak against his ministry.
    To the point about the anti-christ doing signs and wonders - yes, this is going to happen. But do you think he will give God the glory? No, he will take it for himself, which is his nature - and I don’t see Todd doing that. So you have to think, where is Todd getting the power to do signs and wonders? Like when Jesus asked the Pharisees “By what authority is John baptizing?” I would say from The Lord - then if so, maybe we should stop being offended, and try to listen to what he says. If its something we can’t swallow, well then, don’t listen! There are many flavors of worship, and ministry - there is no one way to preach the word - but that the Word be preached. I see Todd doing that, I see miracles signs and wonders - I see a ministry that is flourishing. Your offended he asks for money? It takes money to run ministries, the body is supposed to support that - why are you offended? Don’t give then! Give somewhere else, but we are called to give!

    I am not interested in debate. I am interested in seeing the Body of Christ not attack itself, just because there is something we don’t understand, or its not to our liking. Amen! I think we would all agree that this is a good thing.

45. Tyler Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 4:59 pm

    Alan;

    You claim that an anit-christ will not give God the glory. I see in scriptures where you are again wrong.

    2Corinthians 11
    12And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

    You also speak of “flavours of worship”… typical politally correct, bubble bath Christianity.

    Jesus said there was one gospel, not many flavours.

    As far as the worship goes, where in the Bible does it describe being slain in the spirit?
    Where does it describe men or women acting like animals?
    Where does it even mention being “drunk in the spirit”
    Where does the Word say we can invoke the power of angels to do our will (which Bentley has written a lengthy article about)?
    The statement of faith of FreshFire Ministries has some interesting changes to real Christian ones I have grown accustomed… the most obvious to anyone is the reservation that God will reveal more to us at His choosing.
    God’s final revelation to John the Elder, has at it’s conclusion… do not add or take away from the Word of God.

    Furthermore about William Branham’s “angel” Emma which had to be beside him in order for his left hand to be able to heal and prophesy, Todd Bentley uses the same “angel”. Why is this alarming?
    Because Branham had a list of heretical beliefs as long as his arm. Besides if he or Todd can only heal with the help of a spirit (not the Holy Spirit) beside them, then they operate with familiar spirits, which can come and go. If they had the Holy Spirit it would stay with them, inside their temple (body).

    You need to study deeper and not be so easily convinced by miracles.

    Peace to all the discerning brethren.

46. Alan Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 7:14 pm

    Tyler - Apparently you are fully convinced. I am not going debate you. If you feel that what I have said is wrong, then rest in your judgment. Jesus said “For which of these miracles do you condemn me?” I think that says more about this than I can say.
    We are called as disciples to crush the work of the enemy - and that is what I see Todd doing. Be sure you are tearing down the work of the enemy, and not what God is doing. It is to our Fathers Glory that we bear much fruit. What is the fruit in attacking a ministry?
    Here, all I am trying to do is be a peace maker, a son of God - and you attack me? Why? How is it that you have become so offended? Because I don’t agree? Pray, and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal what is going on in your heart. Pray into it, there is fruit here yet!

47. Tyler Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 9:00 pm

    Alan;

    Forgive me if I come across harsh.

    But I asked you some questions about the “fruit” in Todd’s “ministry”.

    Where in the Bible does it describe what Todd is doing?

    Where does it say to stuff your pockets full of cash? That’s what most of his sermons are about… did you know that?

    He is after strange spiritual occurances, signs and miracles. The people he convinces are after the same.

    Todd Bentley’s ministry is tearing my church apart, because some follow him, and some follow Jesus Christ. This is why I am reading every word the man has written down, or is written about him… to arm myself in knowledge.

    As for miracles… I have seen a dead man live again, I have seen epilepsy healed, I have seen a three year old boy who was going to die because he had a hole in his heart be declared healed by bewildered cardiologists, I have seen criplles made whole, the sick healed and have even cast a demon out in Jesus’ name. These miracles needed no money to make them happen… only faith in Jesus Christ. They didn’t happen when a “spirit” was ushered in with hypnotic and repititious music and chanting, because the Holy Spirit resides in the believer and makes that person Holy. These miracles happen when people reach out to Jesus Christ and say “I believe Jesus can do all things for me.”

    Jesus said of miracle seekers “you are an adulterous and perverse generation seeking signs and miracles, none shall be given to you…”

    When a man like Todd or Benny Hinn or any other, stands up and declares healing and it happens, yes it’s a miracle. But because they lack the foundational principals of Christian faith, but rather go after money and honour, these miracles are not of God, but of the Evil One.

    Todd plainly loves money, it and angels are what he talks about most, more than Jesus Christ. Jesus said man cannot love money and God. He also said it is harder for a rich man to enter heaven than for a camel to fit into the eye of a needle.

    This kind of says it all.

    Moreover I am not out to misguidedly cut Todd Bentley down, I really sincerely hope he finds the Lord Jesus Christ. I have been guided by the Holy Spirit to search the facts about this man and reveal them to our church. The truth is he is not all he makes himself out to be. He is a wolf in sheeps clothing.

    Peace to you

48. Thomas Says:
    February 6th, 2008 at 9:16 pm

    Alan, peace, I am not attacking you and when the Bible says,”Them that sin rebuke before all” it does not mean that you are attacking them either. I noticed that you seemed to ignore the fact that I said I like Todd and that my desire is that he and others that have been decieved be set free. As to a ministry needing money, what about when the Bible says, “freely you have recieved freely give”? Also when Paul said, “I have worked day and night that I would not be a burden to you, and that I could preach the Gospel without charge”?
    Also Simon the sorcerer offered money so he could “buy” the “power” to lay hands on people so that they could recieve the Holy Spirit! So Paul rebuked him for thinking that he could buy the gift of God, but I guess according to your doctrine (which is in error,I type that in Love) Paul was just wasting his time “attacking” him. I think you need to learn the difference between Biblical Love which costs everything and the new “tolerance” which costs nothing and is masqueraded as “christian love” which it definetly is not, In fact it is one of the most anti-Christian things out there. And as to the fruit of “attacking” or judging other people or ministries maybe you missed that part in my previous comment, That if the individual that I mentioned had not “attacked” or “judged” me and the ministries I had been following I would not have been healed of epilepsy and enjoy the fruit of the Spirit that I now enjoy, so to repaet your quote, “for which of these miracles do you condemn me?” And Alan I am not offended at what you say I am glad that you have the freedom to comment in the first place and I see it as God’s grace allowing you to reach out for help in the only way you can, and I pray you will find freedom in Jesus. with Love,

    Thomas

49. Tim Says:
    February 8th, 2008 at 2:14 am

    Hi,

    Well what a great discussion…..

    I love Todd. I love His heart…. I love what God is doing through him throughout the world….

    i believe in Prosperity for Kingdom purposes…in other words… i Believe God wants us to prosper so that we can give and give and give and give to the Kingdom of God…..

    Lets face it…. It cost money to go on missions trips…. it costs money to do crusades…. I DONT AGREE WITH PREACHERS PROPSERING FOR THEMSELVES….. I believe God wants us to be propserous…..what do i mean by that…

    well…. we shouldnt lack….meaning if our car breaks down we have the finances to fix it…
    if something happens we have the finances to fixit….do you get me…

    in acts it says the disciples lacked nothing…. they were propserous…..

    but sowing is the key…..

    money is like one of the most important (physical - Natural) things on the earth…. without it you dont eat you cant buy anything.,,,etc etc..

    When people sow into the Kingdom of God, it is a sacrifice… of saying I probably cant really afford this but God you cna use it…. and i love you and I want to see your Kingdom advance….

    God cant help but bless that…..

    NOW WE DONT SOW TO GET S0METHING IN RETURN….. WE SOW OUT OF LOVE, AND WE KNOW THAT GOD WONT LET US DOWN….

50. Tyler Says:
    February 8th, 2008 at 4:13 am

    Hey Tim;

    Yes we all love Todd, I’m sure of it or we wouldn’t be Christian.

    What we are discussing as you know is the unscriptural aspects of his money directed ministry, as well as the familiar spirits he indulges for so called miracles.

    You quote Acts out of context, let me help you clarify…
    Acts 4
    32All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.
    36Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means Son of Encouragement), 37sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles’ feet.

    It plainly says that none held posessions for themselves, and that they shareed everything, and that there were no needy among them.

    Where does it say they were prosperous (I take it you mean well off financially)? Where does it say that the more they gave the more the got back?

    It sounds to me as if they shared laterally… with each other rather than just with a ministry, trusting that ministry would not pocket some.

    As for worldwide ministry, yes it costs money, that is why people should give money to trusted missionaries directly, because a portion of any money given to a church will be used by the church. If you want the money to go to African AIDS orphans… then research who is there doing Christian missionary work and give.

    Todd needs Jesus as we all do, Jesus never held a penny… Judas did, and his hand was always in the purse.

    As for your car breaking down or other things… Jesus says do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow has enough worry of it’s own. I suggest you get a job and save some money for such a mishap… it’s what God gave you a brain for.

    Check what kind of vehicle Todd drives… I have, he has more than three vehicles and a Harley Davidson… why all that for one man? One of them is an F-350 Super cab… in Abbotsford? Check out what kind of house he lives in… then judge if this giving your doing is really going to worldwide or even local Christian duty. More likely a lot of it goes to Todd’s expenses.

    Wake up and smell the corruption here Tim.

51. Tim Says:
    February 8th, 2008 at 5:19 am

    Tyler….

    Jesus said “You Will know them by their fruits.”

    Tell me is there not fruit from His ministry….miracles…souls being saved…..

    people being set free……

    tell me tyler do you see that kind of fruit…

52. Tyler Says:
    February 8th, 2008 at 3:44 pm

    Tim;

    Matthew 7
    16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

    2 Thessalonians 2
    8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

    Matthew 12:39
    He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

    All I hear is Todd Bentley asking for money, read the above information. Once a minute for 15 minutes he is asking people to give him money, sometimes saying to stuff it directly into a pocket.

    Todd Bentley may be producing miracles, but by what spirit? He admits to having the angel of William Branham giving him power to do miracles. William Branham was a heretic, denying the Trinity and saying Cain was the result of sexual relations between Eve and the serpent.

    People who use spirits to produce miracles are called witches or warlocks, and their spirits are familiar spirits.

    The bible says the Holy Spirit which resides in Christians produces miracles.

    Todd Bentley’s ministry is destroying churches in BC, that’s what I know. I’ve never heard of a soul being won.

    Tyler

53. Paul Ferree Says:
    February 8th, 2008 at 11:15 pm

    Listen guys,

    This shouldn’t be about validating or tearing down one ministry or another. That wasn’t the purpose of this article to begin with. As I mention, it had nothing to do with Todd, it had to do with a message that is preached not just in Todd’s ministry but in countless others across all denominational lines.

    We don’t know Todd’s heart. I don’t know him personally and it doesn’t appear you guys do either. So any judgement on him is not accurate…just hearsay. I go through this a lot with my appreciation of David Hogan. There’s a ton of junk on him out there…but I don’t know him, probably never will, but I do hear his messages and the messages on there own are good for me.

    So, it’s this message, not the messenger that is to be the focus. This is not unique to Todd Bentley. I don’t question his desire for souls, his “inclusion” in the body of Christ, or anything else. I’m just questioning this message, by itself, and it’s not Todd’s message…he just happened to preach it and I’m using it as an example as to not correct Todd, but to correct the body for falling for stuff like this. This isn’t about Todd, it’s about us…what do WE do about it?

    I would really hope that we can stop the conversations about whether Todd is valid or not..it’s irrelevant. It’s no different than talking about politics…we can’t be this passionate (one way or another) about a man we don’t know.

    Paul

54. Tim Says:
    February 8th, 2008 at 11:41 pm

    Paul sowing and reaping is a Kingdom Principle……

    I think we need to start reading our Bibles without our Fleshly filter and Read it with the assistance of the Holy Ghost…

    It’s not about only reading the parts wqe like and ignoringthe other parts….

    its about reding the Bible and believing what it says… even if we dont understand it…..

    That is the Fear of the Lord….

55. Paul Ferree Says:
    February 9th, 2008 at 12:04 am

    Sowing and reaping is a Kingdom Principle…of course. But Sowing what and reaping what?

    Matt 6:26 “Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?”

    If we’re saying that sowing money and reaping money is the principle then I believe we’re mistaken.

    You see, my provision is already taken care of, whether I sow or not. Right?

    This is better…let’s talk about this a bit.

    Paul

56. Tim Says:
    February 9th, 2008 at 12:28 am

    yes your provision is taken care of…..

    God has principles throuought the Bible….

    Tithing being one of them….

    No the principle doesnt specifically talk about money… it isd your first fruits……

    which generally today is money…..

    some peopel might not have an income…. so they can sow their time…. etc….

    I bleieve in Propsering for the Kingdom….

    I believe in being prosperous enough, that everyone of my bills and debts are paid and met on time…… that when someone asks me for money i can bless them with it….

    when a need arises at my loal church i can provide for that…..not to big note myself but to be a blessing…..

    the church is designed to prosper in order to build the kingdom…..

    do i agree with preachers having 50 cars, boats and whatever… living in mansions….it depends how they got the money i guess….

    have you ever thought that they may have just been wise and bought investments…(not saying they have but you never know)

    the bible says that God has given us the ability (strategies, wisdom, etc ) to gain wealth…..

    i know of alot of preachers who have been working in the world and bought investments which have really blessed them….. and i know that they also give out of that abundance which they have recieved not from offerings but from their hard work and investments.. into the Kingdom…..

    i know one ministry that the husband is an itinerate speaker…. he wrote best selling books etc….and makes money off of them…. BUT he said to God…. everything i earn from these i will sow ALL OF IT back into the ministry……

    then His wife started writing best selling books and resources….

    GOD SAID TO THEM, you have been faithful with sowing all from your ( the husband) resources back into the Kindgom…. now everything you earn from your ( the wifes) resources you keep….

    I know other ministers that sow back their whole yealry church wage back into the Kingdom….

    I guess my point is we dont know where the money comes from….. so we cant say that what they are doing is wrong….

57. Thomas Says:
    February 9th, 2008 at 4:05 am

    Here are some intresting verses: Proverbs 13:7
    “There is that maketh himself rich, yet hath nothing: there is that maketh himself poor, yet hath great riches.”; Proverbs 22:1 “A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold.”; Proverbs 22:16 “He that oppresseth the poor to increase his riches, and he that giveth to the rich, shall surely come to want.”; Proverbs 23:4,5 “Labour not to be rich: cease from thine own wisdom. Wilt thou set thine eyes upon that which is not? for riches certainly make themselves wings; they fly away as an eagle toward heaven.”; Proverbs 28:11,20,22,23 “The rich man is wise in his own conceit; but the poor that hath understanding searcheth him out. A faithful man shall abound with blessings: but he that maketh haste to be rich shall not be innocent.”He that hasteth to be rich hath an evil eye, and considereth not that poverty shall come upon him.”He that rebuketh a man afterwards shall find more favour than he that flattereth with the tonque.” Here is an especially awsome one: Proverbs 30:7-9 “Two things have I required of thee; deny me them not before I die: Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me: Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the Lord? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain.” Matthew 19:23,24 “Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.”; Luke 6:20,24 “And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for your’s is the kingdom of God. But woe unto you that are rich! for you have received your consolation.” James 2:5 “Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?”

58. Tyler Says:
    February 9th, 2008 at 4:56 am

    Thomas and Tim;

    Tim you need to back up your statements about what the Bible says with scripture.

    I can’t see where the Bible tells us to be rich and prosperous for the kingdom to grow… in fact I’ve been looking for this growing kingdom and I can’t find a single verse.

    Thomas, thank you brother for the widom stright from God’s word, it’s refreshing and surely, it is Truth.

    Matthew 5:20
    For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
    Matthew 7:21
    “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
    Matthew 18:3
    And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
    Matthew 19:23
    Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
    Matthew 19:24
    Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
    Matthew 21:32
    Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
    Matthew 23:13
    “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
    Mark 9:47
    And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
    Mark 10:15
    I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”
    Mark 10:23
    Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”
    Mark 10:24
    The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!
    John 3:5
    Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
    Acts 14:22
    strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. “We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God,” they said.

    Everything I see speaks about inheriting the Kingdom of God,or entering the Kingdom of God. Nowhere does it say we are in it now, and that it is growing because of our works.

    Jesus commissions us to go into all the world making disciples. But He is silent about saying we live in the Kingdom and that our job is to sow and reap to make it grow. Rather Jesus says the road to salvation is narrow and there are few who find it… He says many are called but few are chosen, near the last days He tells us to expect false apostles who can work miracles that will lead even the elect astray… if it were possible.

    It sounds to me as if those destined to ENTER the Kingdom of Heaven (Jesus’ words)are few, not the majority.

    Thank you again Thomas for your enightenment.

    Paul, Todd’s ministry is a personal thing because it is affecting the unity of my church, which is why I am investigating Freshfire so deeply. I do agree that this money ministry tactic is spread thick right across the page of televangelists.

    Peace to all in Jesu Christ’s mighty name.

59. Thomas Says:
    February 9th, 2008 at 5:48 am

    Hi Tyler, just a quick thought about Mark 10:24 in my Bible Jesus says: “Children, how hard it is FOR THEM THAT TRUST IN RICHES to enter into the kingdom of God! Thank you for your insight on the whole “enter into” the kingdom of God thing, I believe that most of these prosperity preachers are influenced in varying degrees by the “kingdom now”/”manifest sons of god”/”dominionism” theology which basicly states that “we” are going to conquer the world for “jesus” and that “he” is going to return “spiritualy in us as we are his “body” and that we are all going to be little “gods” running around, essentially the same thing that new agers believe with “christian” terminology. We need to remember what Jesus said in John 18:36 “Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. Also 2 Peter Chapter three which describes the earth and heavens being burnt up and our hope of a new heaven and a new earth, all God’s doing not man’s.

60. Tim Says:
    February 9th, 2008 at 5:55 am

    Actually the Bible says the Kingdom of God is within us.. it is here now on the earth…..

    as for needing money to spread the gospel and grow the Kingdom of God…i think it is needed…

    If you know of an airline tha sends missionariers overseas fro free,…. please let me know….

    or if you know airlines that will send containers of food to the needy for free please let me know….

    lets face it….. if we want to see the hungry fed…with both physicall and spiritual food.. if we want to see the world recieve the Gospel…. then we need money to do that…

    I dont want to be rich for personal gain…. i want to have an abundance so that i can give away that abundance to the Kingdom of God……but you see… you cant support missions or whatever if you are in lack….

    the Bible has prinicples on prosperity, that are designed so that people can pay their bills..and ontime….lol…and put a little away for savings and still have enough left over to be able to sow into the Kingdom…

61. Tim Says:
    February 9th, 2008 at 5:57 am

    Yes it is hard for THOSE WHO TRUST IN RICHES

62. Tim Says:
    February 9th, 2008 at 5:58 am

    Yes it is hard for THOSE WHO TRUST IN RICHES to enter the KOG…. not those who are rich but those who trust in their riches rather than God,,,,,,

63. Thomas Says:
    February 9th, 2008 at 6:11 am

    Paul, thank you for your moderation, I am also affected personally by Todd’s ministry but I know we do not war with flesh and blood and the fact is after researching modern apostasy, I have found out that Todd is actually a minor player and this gives me hope that he will be able to turn from the error of his ways, when I say that he is a minor player consider this for context: in 2000 Todd personally came to our little log church in New Hazelton, BC and there is only about 20-30 people in our congregation. Paul I totally appreciate keeping this discussion objective and not subjective, as when we use the truth of God’s Word to reveal error people can be set free from many false doctrines and the influence of many deceived
    “teachers” simultaneously without having to single anyone out. Even though I am affected personally I do not take it personally and This is about doctrine, preserving the Truth
    and contending for the Faith, not personalities or preference.

64. Thomas Says:
    February 9th, 2008 at 6:33 am

    Hey Tim I was wondering, what are your thoughts on the mark of the beast, and all these things around us that seem to be leading up to it? Quick pay cards “smart cards”, implantable micro-chips etc.? I have considered becoming rich in order to spread the Gospel and I believe God has told me about several inventions before they came out and there are still some that have not come out yet. My concern though is will I have enough time to patent, develop, and market these new inventions before the mark is put in place? The economy certainly look like it is heading for a collapse, and this could be used as an opening to eliminate cash and set up the mark. How will we buy plane tickets and containers of food if to do so you must take the mark? Many of these ministries will be exposed when this happens as they will support the mark and it will seem like a wonderful thing: no more missing children, a great way to keep tabs on criminals, all the blue-tooth wireless applications of an implanted chip are incredible! But if you are following these “personalities” and “ministries” some of whom say all the prophecies about the anti-christ and the mark have already been fullfilled and they will tell their followers that it is ok to get the chip implanted in their right hand or forehead because “according to them, it is not the mark” So I repeat my question: “How can I buy a plane ticket and containers of food if I refuse the mark or chip or whatever? Please pray for me if it is God’s will to develop these inventions and use the money to preach the Gospel then that is what I want to do.

65. Thomas Says:
    February 9th, 2008 at 7:01 am

    Also Tim thank you for switching gears:
    “the bible says that God has given us the ability (strategies, wisdom, etc ) to gain wealth…” Like God giving me ideas for inventions, or the time that I worked at a recycling plant and He showed me several ways to improve the conveyor belt network improvements that increased production 300% and earned me a promotion and a raise! One thing I will stress is that there is a difference between being generous out of a grateful heart, and giving in order to get, also I think I could handle being wealthy as long as I only spent enough on myself to survive and gave the rest back, keeping in mind that even that will be in vain if I do not have love… Luke 16 is such an important chapter if anyone has any insight on it especially verses 1-9 regarding the unjust steward and the children of this world being wiser in their generation than the children of light and “make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they shall receive you into everlasting habitations… I look forward to your comments.

66. Tyler Says:
    February 9th, 2008 at 3:34 pm

    Thomas;

    Your ministry is laid out before you.

    Go, kill and eat!

    Blessings brother, but don’t waste your time on inventions, focus on your commission.

    Tyler

67. Paul Ferree Says:
    February 9th, 2008 at 4:32 pm

    I think we all agree that provision is included within the Kingdom. We can bench the issue as to whether we’re supposed to be filthy rich or just making it by…that’s another discussion.

    However, the issue here is how ministers of the gospels use tactics to “build up” an offering…or encourage giving into a ministry.

    In the audio above Todd mentions these concepts that I would raise my eyebrow on:

    -“Sowing into the glory”…specifically in this message referring to giving money during a time of “glory” in a service.

    -“Sowing FOR the glory”…suggesting that a financial gift would transfer into a spiritual gift.

    -The tithe doesn’t bring you into the blessing, it’s the offering.

    -Suggesting people should use their credit cards to give. This is one of the most