Thu 20 Mar 2008

I’m going to switch gears for a bit and try to get over into some things I feel the Lord is teaching me about church and community. Sounds boring I know, but this has really turned my life and understanding of the Kingdom upside down. Hopefully I can make it not so boring and spark some interesting discussions. We’ll see. If anything, it will give me a chance to get some of this stuff out of my head and in tangible form.
Ok…so what’s wrong with the picture above? In terms of normal western church life…absolutely nothing. In terms of what I think the church is actually trying to accomplish…everything.
Notice in the picture, there is 1 pulpit with 1 speaker, dozens of pews with even more people. And everybody is facing the same direction, all eyes are on one man. 1 person speaking and hundreds of mouths shut, and even more ears opened. Ahhhhh….Church!!
Since when did this become the picture of the Church ? How in the world did we get to the point where we think that doing THIS every Sunday is the culmination of everything Jesus taught us in the gospels?
This is about to sound pretty critical, because it is, but I don’t want to make it sound like this model doesn’t produce any good fruit. It does, but only because people are there. God will use wherever people are because that’s what He loves…people, not systems and organizations.
Ok, back to the picture. I’m starting to get very frustrated with churches these days. When I go and sit and listen to one guy’s (for the most part it’s just older men) interpretation of a few scriptures, or even better, a self help psychology teaching. I get so annoyed because I look around the room and I wonder to myself…”What’s that person’s story?” I’m to the point where I would rather talk about life with an unbeliever than sit and listen to another teaching sermon on Sunday.
Do we really think that this is it? Of course not…we say it all the time “Church is outside these 4 walls” and “You are the church”. But we always hear that from a pulpit too. You know what I would like to see. I would like to see the pulpit completely trashed, everybody take off their religious facade and face each other and just talk. Don’t talk about this scripture or that scripture…let’s just talk and get to know one another. Our church model doesn’t actually compensate for people getting to know each other.
Every Sunday we go to church and look at the back of someone’s head. The church tries to overcome this by forcing everybody for about 3 minutes to go around the room and “shake someones hand that you don’t know, tell them you’re glad they’re here!”. This is the churches honest attempt for creating relationships. Of course they try other things like home groups and little programs, but they’ll never get rid of the Golden Cow called the Sunday Sermon…because after all, that is the focal point…it is the MOST important part of the week.
I think this is most of the problem. We think that a Sunday Sermon is discipleship…it’s essential to the growth of the body. I say we take away the Sunday Sermon along with the pulpit and see who really is interested in studying the word. If they aren’t going to do it on their own what makes us think that a 45 minute teaching on some particular social issue is going to be sufficient. And what if I just don’t think the guy is a good speaker, or what if I don’t like sitting and listening to 1 person talk for an hour, what if I think it’s boring? I’m judged not because I don’t love God, but because I don’t like sitting for an hour listening to someone else talk and I can’t talk back…heaven forbid there be conversation in Church! Our model is completely designed around the pastor and Sunday morning’s sermon…instead of loving Jesus and loving one another.
Man, I’m complaining a lot. It’s been a while since I’ve been able to write so it’s just kind’ve coming out in this mess. So forgive me if I seem bitter. I probably sound that way because I probably am! I’m bitter with the thought that my own thoughts and actions supported these things I now hate. I used to think it was all about the church and ministry. Now I think it’s simply all about God, you, and me and relationships and getting to know one another genuinely. I think it’s about taking care of one another, it’s about loving, fighting and working things out. We’ve got this nice little package called church that tries to develop all these things for us that we’ve forgotten how to do it ourselves.
My solution…don’t go to church on Sunday, instead, have a cookout, or invite people over to your house, not for a bible study…no bibles allowed…just talk. Talk like normal people and get to know each other. God is there and all He wants us to do is learn to love Him and one another, and we don’t learn that from a sermon on “5 Ways To Love One Another”. No, we learn that by getting into the thick of it and allow the relationships to create the lessons for us.
[Really, I’m not that mad…but I am serious about the whole Sunday thing…let’s stop going to church, I think it will do a lot of people good….:-) hahahaha]


March 20th, 2008 at 8:58 am
I’m TOTALLY with you Paul. Our church is quite small so it’s easier for us to experiment in this direction, but this IS where we’re heading
There’s a book floating around at the moment called “Pagan Christianity”. I’ve not read it, but my understanding is that it shows how most of our modern church structure comes from Pagan influences rather than the lifestyle that the early church adopted on the basis of hanging out together with Jesus.
March 20th, 2008 at 9:37 am
More here: http://www.madetopraisehim.com/item/969
March 20th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
I understand your frustration. I’ve had similar frustrations as a pastor. There is comfort in knowing, however, that many people in this country are wrestling over some of the same issues.
I believe in preaching. Jesus and the apostles preached in various venues, many of which were very similar to the picture you have at the start of this post (with obvious differences, of course). Some crowds were large, some small. I don’t think the heart of your complaint is with preaching and listening. I think you have realized the dismal lack of community in most of our churches.
It’s a big problem with a lot of sources. Part of it is cultural. All of us (christian or not) have insulated ourselves from each other with a suburban facade of perfection. That facade has invaded the Church. Pastors (and their wives) are expected to at least APPEAR perfect. In fact, EVERYONE is supposed to be perfect. Never let the seams and the rough edges show. Keep your lawn manicured and your 2.5 kids quiet.
Discipleship happens within the context of community. We thought we could replace community with better meetings and PowerPoint and now we are all discovering what a silly idea that is. The trick is maintaining the important role of Biblical preaching and corporate worship while at the same time forcing our self-insulated church goers to connect with each other in Christ-centered community.
My fear is that we will all just throw preaching out with the bathwater. That would be a terrible mistake that would result in equally grievous problems in our churches down the road.
March 20th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Maybe there’s a need to discuss “what is preaching?”
I’m not claiming to know the answer, but I am fairly convinced that the model we see in most modern churches is not the only viable model for preaching. Neither am I immediately saying that it’s an invalid model. But I do question if there’s more on offer if we’ll look beyond merely accepting modern tradition and search the scriptures for the answer.
Can we exhort and encourage one another in other ways, exposing the Truth in the scriptures, and challenging one another to love and embrace the revelation found therein? Can we actually preach to one another without the need to set chairs out in rows and place someone at the front? Jesus’ authority was clearly felt and acknowledged in every conversation without needing to arrange the room to suggest/impose it in advance.
I’ve had some amazing conversations with people about scripture where we’ve been moved to tears, repentance and joy together as the Spirit has given us fresh revelation and we’ve realised that our hearts are undergoing Holy Spirit surgery. Isn’t that preaching to one another?
I’d have loved to have been around Jesus. I want to see how he addressed the crowds such as “the sermon on the mount”, how he was in smaller groups such as with the disciples, and how he was with students of scripture such as in the temple courts. Would he actually have been that different in each setting? How similar would his style be to that of a Jewish Rabbi who would uncover the Truth whilst promoting discussion - effectively cultivating the soil at the same time as depositing the seed. How different might that be to the “Greek style address” that is popular now? What immediate effect would have been seen in people’s lives that most modern day preachers at some point or other feel frustrated over wanting but rarely seeing?
I realise I’m asking more questions than I’m answering. I just suspect that there’s more God wants from preaching than the current western view. Rather than throwing preaching out, I suspect that we need to get beyond what we’ve accepted as preaching. I suspect there’s much more on offer if we’ll seek God’s heart afresh over it instead of assuming that the religious forms we accept in our modern churches are accomplishing what “preaching” is intended to accomplish.
What about the lifestyle of the early church? How does “the apostle’s teaching” compare to our “preaching”? Again, was it more Rabbidic and less Greek?
I’m asking these questions not because I have answers - I don’t - but because I am prepared to journey through to help release God’s best.
March 20th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Nice seeing you guys here!!
@Ben: Well, you know me and preaching. Hahaha, I’ll preach at a gas station! I think proclamation and even teaching is necessary, but I don’t think it’s the focal point of the community, and that’s what it’s become. If I had a conventional church I would would rather see fellowship the focal point and have teaching sessions as more extracurricular. With technology the way it is these days, we could just record the sermons and hand them out so people can listen to them whenever they want…if they want to at all. If they don’t want to hear our messages, it’s not the end of the world right? What’s important is that their lives are invested in and genuine friendships are made. Maybe someone in the community could help another more than an hour teaching one day a week would.
I think that’s what some pastors think, “If I don’t teach them, and [essentially] force them to listen to me once a week, they’ll never learn correctly”. I think the strong believers will naturally encourage the weaker to engage in study and relationship with God…and if they can do it on their own, they’re much better off anyway than relying on someone hand feeding it to them. But this requires real relationships, and it can’t be facilitated and programmed by the church, it needs to be real.
@Mark: “Can we actually preach to one another without the need to set chairs out in rows and place someone at the front?”
That’s exactly my point. And I often wonder if those real conversations we have with one another are more effective than a sermon. I think “preaching” within a setting of a relationship is way more effective.
You bring up some great points Mark!
Thanks for stopping by guys!
I’ve missed your comments!
Paul
March 20th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
A shepherd does not feed his sheep unless they are too weakened to feed themselves - perhaps because they are new born, recovering from illness, injury or attack.
He leads them to pastures where they graze.
If we feel that we need to feed the sheep all the time and they are not feeding themselves then what does that say about the environment we have created? What needs to change first? Them? Or us?
March 21st, 2008 at 11:39 am
26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
(1 Cor 14)
Good post. The answer is yes, we can do things differently. Frankly, sermons have gotten to the point of boring me.
The real problem in the church isn’t knowledge. Most people have head knowledge of what they’re supposed to do, but a lot aren’t doing it. In other words it’s like trying to become a physician with just lectures at college. It won’t work. True learning about Christ - True fellowship in Christ comes in application.
If my words “ABIDE” in you. In other words if they are actively dwelling in you. That’s the prescription for change.
Never did Christ intend one man, whether Apostle, Propehet, Evangelist, Pastor or Teacher, to occupy the center place of the gathering. Christianity is supposed to be fully participatory.
There were times when the Apostles preached in the temples or synagogues. But the real focus could be found in Acts 2
41 Then those who gladly[a] received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. 42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.
I am involved in a small church of homeless men on the streets of Dallas. Up until a couple of months ago, I was the primary bible teacher.
The Lord convicted me of that. How can the guys have confidence in sharing the Gospel, if they can’t open the Word of God to others. Now we rotate with one of them bringing the Word each week. This is forcing them to dig deeper, to get into the Word more themselves, and helping them learn to share with others. Isn’t that what should be happening.
We wonder why we’re not making converts. People often don’t think they can share with people what the Gospel is. That’s a shame. Part of the reason is they 1. haven’t been given a way to share in a safe environment where they can make mistakes and 2. They haven’t been forced to dig deeper into the Word of God themselves.
I really believe a time of radical change is coming to the Church. The message I am getting over and over is God doesn’t like what men have done to his church and he wants it back - and he’s going to take it back.
Oh well. Sorry about the diatribe.
Thanks for the post.
John
March 24th, 2008 at 2:50 am
Paul, like you I sometimes have problems with Church moving from a living organism to a ‘corporate inc’ like church. To me, preaching is actually the proclaiming of the Truth of God and as far as I have noticed in the Scriptures, the Apostles preached to non-believers so to say in ‘evangelistic’ meetings only and when they meet up with other believers, they shared the Word with each other. I might be wrong in this observation, correct me if I am really wrong.
But my point is, I am totally against a corporate-inc kinda church. In fact I think in such churches, the focus of the people actually switch from Jesus to the Pastor and somehow the pastor is made to be like ‘god’ and thus the cause of so many so called ’superstar’ pastors today. It’s one thing to love your pastor and honor him but I’ve seen in many churches that they have went over the boundary treating as though he is God and Jesus is not our Lord.
What I believe the role of pastor is just a leader that will point us to Jesus, direct our focus to Jesus. And I truly believe in discipleship and it’s a must for everyone who wants to follow Jesus. It’s not optional.
March 24th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
I think you are just one of many experiencing the same thing…. funny though how we as Christians get used to things, like sitting in rows listening to someone talk…. well, I’m all for preaching/teaching,lots of people got used to it, I say got because many in church remembered God calling them in the past, but they sat and sat for years, yes, some ushering some sunday school work and so on. But where has the outlet for their calling in church? where was the coaching and support and Discipleship to raise them up in their ministry? Anyway, I think you get my point, most churches seem to have missed it big time! Meaning the purpose of church or community of believers.Reaching out, training workers for the fields, sending missionaries (and supporting them)and so on, the task is simple! But seemingly, most churches get into lots of other stuff, getting distracted, raising money for parking lots, carpet, windows chairs music equipment, big screen tv’s, I’m not suggesting we should not have any of those things but many times it takes up lots of time talking about,meetings, planning and raising the money to buy it…. what if we spent at least as much time doing the same for local outreaches and missions?
Training and sending more missionaries?
Me and my wife have been in the US now for some years, to long of a furlough, before coming here we were doing missions in Europe, evangelism working with local churches doing outreach in a team ministry and a lot of other stuff for almost 14 years, we had to come back due to a low in finances…. (I’m not bitter) just want to point out, we have meet many/lots of missionaries who had to come off their field because of the same reason… I think churches should be supportive of any person willing to GO and preach, because most people wont!
I stop ranting now, thanks for your site
Roland from Sweden
March 25th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
What do you think of the cell/house church model? Particularly taking a small group of individuals and equipping them relationally to disciple their own group of individuals. It’s Jesus’ words in action: “While you are going, disciple all nations, baptizing . . . and teaching . . . .”
March 25th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
It’s great in concept…but I think it doesn’t really work as intended, at least not in my experience.
The problem I see is that most cell/house groups are just an offshoot program of the main sunday service church.
I personally don’t think there needs to be any kind of “hub” church, there just needs to be relationships between groups.
House Churches are fine, but there again, they’re usually just offshoots of a bigger church trying to expand. Most house churches are just mini big churches, just stuck in a house. They still keep in with the basic western church format, one guy speaks while the others listen.
Children mimic their parents. So if it’s an establishment trying to incorporate home groups, it will still look and act like it’s parent organization.
I think right now I just have a sour taste in my mouth…I’m sure it will even out soon.
Paul
March 27th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
First, I would like to say that I found your website, looked over a few of your post, and think that your doing an amazing thing here. It kinda shocks me to compare some parts of this site with my own, but you have an amazing thing going.
As far as this post, I would have to agree with some of the things that you touched on here. The church of today has lost the whole meaning of the church, what it means, and what it is to be performing. If you ask the people of the church about there community, and outreach efforts, the most common answer is “That is what we are paying our pastor to do” I had wrote an article earlier about this, which you can find here: http://www.myfatherswork.org/the-church/
April 4th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
along with John Lundt– I went to a conference recently that said the same thing along the line of– many have the head knowledge and are agnostic in their hearts– and Jesus DEMONSTRATED the power of the Holy Spirit along with his parables and preachings.
Also, I wonder how many people are aware of their spiritual giftings and also walking in it? Prophets being the eyes for the body, etc… with people in China welcoming new believers as new ears to hear, new eyes to see..VERY participatory and necessary
April 7th, 2008 at 3:32 am
Frank Viola and George Barna have recently co-authored a book called “Pagan Christianity”: a worthwhile read! It exposes and explains many of the things you are all talking about and propels us to BE the church as it can be.
April 17th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
Have you heard about the book “So You Don’t Want to Go to Church Any More’? You can find out about it at http://www.jakecolsen.com/contents.html
May 7th, 2008 at 1:37 am
Hi,
Just wanted to throw this out to you….. the purpose of what we call church…(gathering together, with one man teaching etc.) to me its not about thats it its all over….i have gone to church whatever…. for me it is about gathering together as family siting under the authority of a God ordained Leader and for him or her to hear from God and share that with the congregation….. why???? Jesus drew the disciples to Himself before He sent them out…..
i know we can come close to Jesus without going to church…. but there is just something about gathering together as family and encountering God together….
then we should go out and do the work of the ministry….
otherwise it would be like giving a pilot a plane and saying…. ok go and fly it…..lol… without any instruction….
but as we go to church and trust and allow God to speak through someone and then go out and do what God has called us to do…
May 7th, 2008 at 5:28 am
Tim,
I understand what your saying.
But really, we’re all God ordained, and everybody has something to add to the body. But under the current model, we rarely get to experience it.
I believe discipleship can take place throughout an organic relationship between people…I’m not sure if it’s necessary to establish this tiered system we’ve established.
I don’t know yet. Just experimenting.
Paul
May 7th, 2008 at 11:17 am
Tim,
the only problem is that after you’ve been sitting under that “authority” for a few years - you begin to stagnate. I get far more from my own study than I have with a sermon. It’s been that way for years.
Pastors rarely listen to the Holy Spirit about what he wants to teach. I’ve even seen some who base their series on so called “spiritual surveys.” What do people want teaching on? I can’t go back to systems like that.
The teaching from pulpits is milk. No wonder people aren’t walking in the Spirit.
If your experience is different, wonderful. But that’s mine. I am part of a couple of simple churches. I can grow, learn, and contribute as well.
I’m not going back to any one man shows. I don’t want them to hear God for me. I want to hear God for myself.
As for authority. When they begin to act like servants, I’ll recognize their authority. That’s what Jesus had said. We have a top down system in the traditional church and most pastors and leaders tend to Lord it over people even if they don’t think that’s what they’re doing.
Why a platform? That’s a power position. Why no interaction in the teaching or preaching? He or she wants to give their message. They could care less what the body thinks.
When I left the traditional church, I wasn’t looking to leave. But I found life and freedom once I got outside the one man show and I’m doing a lot more for the Kingdom of God.
May 12th, 2008 at 1:52 am
It is our job to make sure our relationship with God is growing correct?
the Word says draw near to God and He will draw near to you James 4:8? Who draws first? We do…
The Bible says do not forsake the gathering together of yourselves…. i know that this is not referring to traditional church… the church is made of a body of believers…. so if believers are getting together than thats church no matter what it looks like….
i guess the purpose of having a pastor or leader is so that there is a type of order and not chaos.
if a group of believers get together there still needs to be someone to head that up…. someone to lead…..
A pastors job is to come along side the Holy Spirit and Help Him lead the sheep to the Good Shepherd Jesus…..
to be acountable before God for those believers….
just because we are under the authority of a pastor doesnt mean we cant grow on our own or that we are bound by a certain amount of growing cause of our pastors…. it just means that we have someone who is praying for us has our best interests at heart, someone who is committed to seeing the call of God on our lives blossom and boom…
and as we submitt ourselves to the leadership of that Pastor God honours that…..
Just a few thoughts
Tim
May 14th, 2008 at 2:41 am
God is raising a new generation of belivers who will no longer be decieved by false teachings and closed minded blind faith. God is raising a generation who demands the truth. A generation that wants to break the back of the devil set traditions and bring God to the forefront. God is doing something in me and I thank him for his love and glory and mercy to even spend a second on my sham I have been calling life. As we see now these are the last days and he is calling out his children. He is judging the churches. Many for profit churches are being exposed and many Sexual immoral churches are being ripped open. The world weather patterns are changing and the world is at war. We are witnessing the last days and God is preparing those who will see him.
Its up to us to continue to expose the falshood of churches. The Christian church has adopted the falsehoods of Catholicism. Mammon has gripped the hearts of false prophets and uses them to preach people right into hell. Lets pray and hope God can remove these mens influnce from those who are unsure and lost so they can find the truth.
May 21st, 2008 at 10:32 am
Just read “Whats wrong with this picture- is this the church? I think this disscussion is long over due.We need to look at what is being called the “church” in the light of scripture and be willing to discard that which the Lord reveals is not of Him.
I do believe however there is a danger that we go a step to far and become unwilling to recognise that the Lord has given us[the church]the gifts of leadership.Eph4:11-16 for our benefit and sound teaching and preaching is something the church needs more of.1Tim5:17,2Tim4:1-5
My prayer is that we all remain humble before the Lord as none of us are immune to getting it wrong [well at least I hope we do]and the last thing we need is another version of “church” that the Lord didn’t ask for.Love in Christ
May 29th, 2008 at 10:15 pm
your EXACT frustration gave birth to the “emerging” church. Rob Bell, Donald Miller, Marc Driscoll and the gang.
i’m with you…we are failing in our mission here in the west. as a pentecostal, i feel like i’ve been chasing the proverbial golden carrot for years now…trying to “usher” in the “end time revival”
i’m through with it.
i want the gospel and thats it.
matthew
mark
luke
john
and the rest of the NT…i want the simplicity of Christ.
stem
May 30th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
@Stem No no….IIIII’MMMM the one that’s going to usher the “end time revival”. It’s going to be nameless and faceless, but it’s going to be me in the center of it!! Maybe I’ll have a conference to kick things off….hahahah j/k
Have you read my article on How To Study The Bible? It’s a paraphrase of a teaching from Dave Roberson. If you haven’t read it yet, I’d highly recommend at least listening to the audio linked there. I think you’ll really love it.
Anyway…off to plan my conference…
Thanks for all the comments guys,
Paul
June 2nd, 2008 at 10:13 pm
i have a truck load of dave roberson material (he came to our church back in the early 90’s)…so i’m totally down.
i noticed you tagged Gary Carpenter in the Bentley article as well…great stuff on giving.
stem.
ps..go start that conference and be sure to take up the offering for the first 1 hour of the service!
June 18th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
you know, for intents and purposes, this article should get at least HALF the traffic that the bentley article is getting.
i mean, isn’t this where the rubber meets the road for the church?